Somehow there has to be a way for leftists to just stop feeling bad about themselves and get a win somewhere.

You kinda crashed out and lost the plot, you were claiming that leftists were doing lots of voting up until 2024, but you just confirmed my whole point that leftists did not vote.

Okay, this is super cool, and the data you scrapped makes a really compelling case that you were correct this entire time, Warren did split the vote.

So this might be a rhetorical question, but is there a lesson that leftists and progressives can take away from this? Does there need to be a clearer direction on leftist unity when approaching a DNC primary to influence the outcome? Did leftists give up way too fast after Super Tuesday? Were leftists too easily influenced by Obama and TV coverage?

Thank you for typing out such a well-researched post.

I always appreciate discussing in good faith, and that’s what I’m here to do. We will probably never reach an agreement, but the discussion is worthwhile. I have the impression that you are emotionally invested in proving the moral good and righteousness of communism, and therefore the moral righteousness of the USSR, and will work backwards from that conclusion, pursuing you own confirmation bias. I don’t have any expectation that I can say anything to change your mind, and at the same time I realize that I’m equally susceptible to my own bias. But I respect you and I appreciate your thoughts, so I will give you mine:

1. Imperialists frequently call themselves “liberators”. The USSR did not concede the land to independent republics, but to it’s own states. The territory, natural resources, and wealth that was conquered and looted became part of the USSR. Historical records indicate that Soviets were almost as brutal occupiers as the Nazis. Soviets deported an estimated 1.2 million people, many of whom died or were forcibly conscripted. About 500,000 incarcerated, 150,000 killed. In the Katyn massacre alone about 22,000 prisoners of war were killed, arguably a genocide on its own, of already imprisoned and helpless people.

2. I don’t see any evidence this was the Soviets having a moral objection to Nazi’s, this looks like pure self-interest/self-preservation. There’s nothing wrong with that. I don’t think there’s any “good guys” in WWII, I think everyone, all Allied powers, were all acting out of self-interest, and not in an invested ethical objection to fascism. Imperialists are dangerous, because imperialism is powerful. Once Hitler started expanding, looting, enslaving, it was a massive boost to the economy and wealth and might of Nazi Germany. The Soviets were smart enough… or informed enough… to know and respect the dangerous threat that Hitler posed. The other Allies were stupid and/or ignorant, and did not know or expect how aggressively Hitler was looking to conquer Europe.

3. The other most popular Imperialist self-justification, besides being a “liberator”, is self defense. The US claims Iraq has WMD’s, invades. Israel claims it’s defending itself from Hamas, destroys Gaza (because those infants were such a threat). Modern Russia is almost a little too on the nose, using Soviet justification 1.5: “we need more Russian-controlled space between us and NATO”. Imperialists and Fascists need to play this morally polarized game constantly, where they themselves are morally righteous no matter what action they take, and their enemy is bad and evil or uncivilized no matter how they are being oppressed. They do moral justifications backwards: we are good, therefore, when we take action it must be good. You are bad, therefore when you are hurt by consequences, you must have deserved it.

4. The Nazi attack on Poland was a surprise to everyone except the Soviets. This is where the West began to suspect that the Molotov-Ribbentop Pact was more than just a non-aggression pact, ie existence of the “Secret Protocols”. “What alternative was there to Nazi occupation of Eastern Poland?” - leak the Secret Protocols and Hitler’s attack plans to the West. NOW there’s still a LOT of problems with my alternative. One week is not a lot of time, the Allied forces are unreliable, and Hitler is about to get a lot more powerful. I think you’re right, Soviets saw the situation and decided the pact was the better option. I don’t think the Soviets are evil; I think they acted in self-interest. It was better to take the opportunity to level-up their own power, in response to Hitler, than hope the flaky and useless West finally gets it together. I think Stalin made the smarter decision geopolitically, the smarter self-preservation decision was just… Imperialism.

Since you asked to take it point by point, and I could oblige, of course I must. And again I’m not expecting either of us to change our minds, but I appreciate you taking the time to take to me.

If you combine Warren and Sanders into one candidate by the end of Super Tuesday would they have a popular vote lead over Biden in all states who voted up to that point?

Is there a reason Sanders didn’t perform better after Warren dropped out?

Warren and Sanders combined only had 34% of the popular vote in the 2020 primary.

instead decided to pursue a non-agression pact with the Nazis to postpone the war as much as possible

A non-aggression pact which splits Poland and Eastern European countries between Stalin and Hitler via the secret protocol? It was imperialist opportunism. If you aren’t opposed to Soviet imperialism, you aren’t opposed to imperialism.

It’s very obviously exaggerated to be comedic bait, like the opening post.

And fwiw, I’m sure Nazi Germany has it’s share of revolutionary LARPers who fantasized about overthrowing Hitler but never got out of their house to do it.

The USSR and US, the biggest contributors to the defeat of the Nazis, were/are both internally very fascist. The USSR originally sided with Hitler, and the Nazi party drew their inspiration from Jim Crow in the US. US and modern Russia have just slid even further into being imperialist authoritarian regimes.

Fascism thrives wherever there is military might, and power concentrated in the hands of a few.

Holy strawman Batman!

Chill bro it’s satire.

Everyone was smart enough to not yell “strawman” at what was obviously a silly low effort bait post, but not smart enough to the silly low effort bait replies.

If you combine Sanders and Warren into one they still would have lost to Biden by a pretty wide margin.

Warren is to the right of Bernie anyway, and Bernie is barely left enough for many leftists; I can’t imagine it was leftists that Warren was splitting away.

I’m not a liberal, I’m anti-capitalist.

And also I’m correct, every election is like groundhogs day, like being trapped in a time loop, where leftists go:

“The lesser of two evils is still evil, I’m going to keep my hands clean”.

“Voting doesn’t work, because you can’t fix an inherently flawed system from within the system.”

“Voting is just part of the system of oppression by keeping people complacent from making real changes.”

In my memory this anti-voting/vote boycotting goes back at least to 2000 Bush/Gore.

Now let’s say I’m completely wrong, let’s say I’m crazy and I just made that all up in my head. Let’s say that leftists have always been enthusiastic participators in American democracy, and 2024 was the first ever leftist election boycott.

Now from 2025 to 2028, is the overton window moving left, or right? Will the 2028 election be to the left of 2024, or will 2028 be to the right of 2024?

I’m dead serious willing to bet $500 that 2028 will be to the right of 2024. The overton window is still moving right.

So did my original statement even matter? Either way leftist election boycotts are moving the overton window right, whether it started in 2000, or 2024.

The only question is, how many election boycotts have to fail at doing what leftists want until leftists suddenly become aware they are poking the stick in their own bicycle wheel?

What? What does that mean in the context of this conversation?

You’re getting confused because it doesn’t have anything to do with the outcome of the last election.

Leftists don’t vote, therefore no one caters to them, therefore the overton window moves right.

Yes it has. Voting turnout in the US is dreadful. Who do you think does reliably get out to vote? I’ll give you a hint: it’s right wingers.

If leftists are turning out in droves in the primary how are we getting Joe Biden?

Not voting means the party has to start offering policies to entice you back.

Leftists have been doing this strategy for a couple decades now. How successful has this been at moving the Overton window left?

Thank you, this is very well said. Any socio-economic structure that centralizes power in the hands of a few is vulnerable to fascism.

OP wasn’t suggesting helping people, but calling liberals a death cult for not overthrowing a Capitalist system.

So more like, you see that person on the side of the road, you help them, and the OP says “how dare you spend your time helping that one individual while living in a society that exploits people globally”.

I don’t think OP really meant that but it was low effort bait for fake internet points.