It’s true, because it’s true.

A tautology isn’t a reason, it’s a logical fallacy. Maybe even a religion. This would be a really weird religion to have a holy war over.

saying something is “arbitrary” because you don’t understand the reason

As opposed to just insisting that something isn’t because you don’t know the reason, like you seem to be doing? Prove me wrong. Provide any evidence. Or honestly even just a claim, a claim would at least be something worth discussing.

Really American, I might say.

Well, you’re not wrong there.

You still don’t know what “arbitrary” means. 12, 24, 30, even 100 hour systems are in no way arbitrary.

So they came from the universe factory with those meanings already imbued in them?

You don’t understand what “implication” means either.

Come on, man. Make a claim. Even make a bogus claim. But don’t just attack me for the fact that you don’t understand my language.

all you manage is to whinge about how your mudcakes are actual food and stomp your food and cry on the ground until I pretend to eat one to make you happy.

Do I? You’re the one that’s been slinging insults since the moment you showed up, and “pretending to eat one” would mean telling me what you think is right instead of trying to verbally abuse me until I admit that you were right, even though you haven’t actually said anything that could be right or wrong yet.

No you haven’t “read a book about timekeeping”,

Honestly now I’m wondering if it was a video series. I don’t see it in my reading log anywhere. But it was a long time ago, so maybe it was before I started logging books.

you’re just a kiddo American feeling mighty stupid that someone is mocking them.

You’re not “mocking” me. You’re shouting random nonsense from the opposing sidewalk and hoping that some of it makes sense.

Like I told you, I’ll eventually tell you the answers,

Press X to doubt.

even though they’re pretty damn obvious for people who have actually read books about timekeeping.

Then it should be pretty easy to point me toward one of these books, shouldn’t it?

This is why America is ridiculed.

There are a lot of reasons why America is ridiculed, and most of them are justified.

You brought up language skills, and now try to make it seem like you didn’t think it important anyway.

Pretty sure I never said anything about the number of languages one speaks being important.

Oh I’ve read your posts.

Citation needed.

I’m just gonna keep you publicly shaming yourself so the bots have time to archive your stupidity for the rest of the world before you delete in all in an attack of shame when I finally do educate you

Wow, you really don’t know me.

“Hey is it day or night out?”

“Uh, I can’t tell, it’s so cloudy”

“Hey, when does this restaurant open?”

“The sign says 11:00, but I don’t know what time it is. Or what day it is; it opens at 16:00 on Saturdays and not at all on Tuesdays.”

“Well, I see by the sun that it’s either a couple of hours before or after noon, or we’re at an extreme edge of the time zone and it’s exactly noon. So I guess rather than trying to find someone to ask or a restaurant that’s clearly open, we should just wait in front of this door for an indeterminate amount of time.”

You “read a book about timekeeping” recently…?

If I said “recently,” I misspoke. It was a long time ago.

I am not and have not argued you at any point.

This is literally what you’re doing now. The first definition of “argument” is “an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.” I have a diverging view from you, apparently (even though you won’t actually tell me what it is), and you’re super heated about it for some reason.

You’re still grossly misusing “arbitrary”.

Based on the definition that you provided, I’m using it perfectly:

1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

The choice to divide the day into twelve hours was based on the personal whim of the ancient Egyptians. They found a particular set of twelve constellations to be important, but by random choice they might well have found a different set of, say, eight constellations to be important. Or sixteen. Or ten.

The choice to begin the day (and thus the numbering of the day) twelve hours before noon was based on the personal whim of the Romans. Maybe they liked some aspects of the choice better than starting the day six hours before noon like Jewish rabbis did, or at noon itself. They may have justified it with a good reason, but the people who chose otherwise would have justified their choice with a good reason as well; so for humanity as a whole, it is arbitrary.

The choice to mark out time zones within which all hours are indexed to the local noon was also made on the personal whim of…some railroad guy (I can’t remember his name) in the 19th century. He knew that the then-current system of every railway having their own time and every city along the railroad having a different local time was a bad idea (it was), but he could just as easily have chosen a UTC and suggested that the trains run on a truly universal UTC. Would it have caught on? Who knows? But we’re presuming for the sake of this discussion a world in which it did.

You literally don’t know anything about the history of timekeeping. That’s the point.

Assertion isn’t evidence. You have yet to actually say a single thing about why you think I’m wrong, just that you do. This is not how argumentation and debate work.

And you don’t see why you’re being ridiculed?

This isn’t ridicule, it’s just baseless name-calling. This is elementary school-level insults. If it were ridicule, it would have any evidence behind it at all. The longer you go without providing any basis for your claims, the more clear it becomes that you have none.

The systems which humanity have used have not been arbitrary

Every system humanity uses is arbitrary. We decide and agree that something arbitrary is useful, and then we decide to imbue that arbitrary thing with meaning.

Words didn’t mean anything until we assigned meaning to them, and you can tell they’re arbitrary because the same combination of syllables can mean something completely different in another language. For someone who claims to know multiple languages, you should be aware of that. Meters aren’t meters because they have to be; we decided that the distance light travels in 0.000000003335641s is a useful amount of distance. We could’ve easily defined it as the distance light travels in 0.000000003335642s and it wouldn’t be any more or less logical.

That’s how humans work. We give arbitrary things meaning. You insisting that the shapes in the clouds are definitely sharks doesn’t make them sharks. The shapes are arbitrary.

and every single “argument” you’ve made showcases your stupidity and ignorance.

Contrasted with the complete lack of argument you’ve made.

Give me your address and I’ll order a “grammar for kids” book and a dictionary for you.

Aw, buddy, you already tried that insult once. And it wasn’t funny the first time.

It’s not about the length of your replies, it’s about who they’re formatted like a teenager with Alzheimer’s.

Now that one’s funny! Good job. I knew you could do it.

What do you mean “no support for your claims about timekeeping systems not being arbitrary”?

I mean, support your claims that there’s something inherent about timekeeping systems. Something in our brains, or in the rotation of the Earth, or in the physical properties of light, or something that means that high noon has to be represented on the clock as 1200.

That’s what “support” means. That’s what evidence is. That’s what any reasonable, good-faith argument has to include.

You still don’t understand what the word arbitrary even means?

I am starting to think that you believe “arbitrary” means “random.” But that isn’t what it means. It means “randomly chosen,” or perhaps “selected without impetus.” The Egyptians didn’t have to choose twelve constellations; nobody was forcing them to, and there wasn’t anything inherent about them that required them to base a system of timekeeping around it.

This is the best wake up comment I could’ve read. Put a laugh in my day right away hahaha thank you.

You’re welcome! I love knowing that I’m helping put some joy into the world.

Also I don’t believe a person like you has read a single book in your entire life.

Oh, thanks for the reminder, I forgot to log the book I finished yesterday.

Have you checked Artstation?

Wikipedia doesn’t cover even the basics.

“Why don’t you even look at Wikipedia?”

“UGH NO NOT LIKE THAT”

Bro, just admit that you’re surprised I actually do know something about the history of timekeeping and we can move on. Or tell me where you think I’m wrong and we can move on. One way or another, this “huehue I know somethin u dont know” routine is getting really tired, so I’m going to start ignoring the unsourced nonsense.

You keep writing essays

Actually, they’re a pretty standard length for me. I’m fairly verbose, and always have been.

you didn’t understand what the word arbitrary means.

Unsupported assertions are definitely a great way to convince me, that’s for sure. We’ve definitely proven that.

Remember how I’ve said, several times, that even your argument about 12, 24, 30 or 100 hour systems being “arbitrary” is wrong? Why not include that in your essay?

Said, yes. With no support or evidence for your claims, so I treat them as nonsense.

Is it because you’re ashamed of having been wrong,

I absolutely love being proven wrong, actually! I like learning new things, and it totally floors people when I admit that they were right and apologize. But you have yet to actually prove literally anything, so I’m not particularly hopeful about that this time.

Because online, there’s no-one to mock you for it. Or, so you thought. ;>

It’s just random insults if you don’t have any facts to back it up. You look like an abusive fool, rather than like you’ve won an argument. I’ve been in online arguments, in one forum or another, since like…1995? Earlier? Not sure. There are definitely always idiots around to mock me for what they think is being wrong.

You get angry

Not angry in the least. I’m having a great time.

because I refuse to give you the answers

Usually people with any evidence at all are super excited to provide it in defense of their point. The fact that you aren’t even telling me what your evidence says indicates that you don’t have any.

and the only place someone with your intelligence will look is fkin Wikipedia.

I read a book a while ago about the history of timekeeping. I honestly hadn’t even seen the Wikipedia article until today.

The timekeeping in my culture isn’t even mentioned there.

But wait! I thought everyone had an inherent understanding of the current worldwide timekeeping method! How could there possibly be any other cultures’ timekeeping methods?

How many language did you speak again? ;>

Non sequitur.

I’ll get back to you on your other pathetic essay tomorrow, just woke up to pee.

I’m honored.

Again, just because you don’t know the reason for a thing doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, sweetums.

Pretty sure I told you that, just a few comments ago.

No [I don’t notice anything about the divisibility of hours]…?

You have completely mischaracterized my entire comment.

it’s just driving you mental having me not tell you the answers so you can pretend to have known all the time.

No, I’m just more and more confident all the time that you don’t actually have a point and are just hoping that I’ll supply one for you in the process of trying to rebut your nonsense.

The fact you’re writing every one of my “replies” as if I’m yelling it’s just candy to my eyes,

You’re the one that came in swinging with insults and name-calling. The fallacies are the logical equivalent of shouting and banging the table. I quote your replies because I’ve seen enough bad faith arguments from you that I wouldn’t put it past you to just edit your comment or intentionally pretend like I’m responding to something I am not.

seething

You really are a pre-teen, aren’t you?

Anyway, this one was way more boring than your usual. You keep on diving deeper and deeper into bad faith arguments, and that’s just disappointing. You can do better than that.

You know, just because your short term memory is only ten seconds long, there’s no need to rewrite the whole conversation everytime.

Because of your stubborn refusal to actually read anything I’ve written, I copy it back down in hopes that you’ll see your own words and actually continue reading beyond the end of the quote. Though, admittedly, it’s not going well at the moment.

Noon, midday or the number of hours is anything but arbitrary.

Noon is not, correct. Midday is not, correct. But while the fact that we’ve assigned any particular celestial event a number is more logical than a horoscope, it’s no less arbitrary. Are you truly suggesting that our lives would be significantly different if we all grew up in a world where a new day began at noon, and so we called noon 0000? Or if we began a new day when most people woke up, and so we indexed noon at 0600 so that people could wake up at 0000?

Yes, you going into that world from this one would be startled (or, judging by your tone here, deeply offended), but any version of you that grew up in that world would think it very normal and logical.

You being ignorant of the reason doesn’t make you right, it makes you ignorant.

Interesting. Because I’ve given actual facts here proving me correct about the reason for these things, but you continue to assert that I’m wrong and there’s definitely a reason (even though you won’t say what it is).

Notice anything about the divisibility of the numbers? No…?

You mean the fact that 12 is divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6? That is a nifty coincidence, isn’t it? Definitely super useful. Good thing the Egyptians liked twelve constellations, huh? But it wasn’t in any way intentional. Might be why it caught on, though.

Apologies, I do understand your country is going through a tough time.

Thank you, I appreciate it. It, uh…it’s not great over here.

Like I said, I’m not your history teacher, and you are just completely ignorant of the subject. You have to know how dumb you are though, but your ego just keeps ripping right through.

I just went to look it up and see if I’d somehow misremembered from the books I read a while back when I was hyperfocused on the subject. But lookie there! “In ancient Egypt the flooding of the Nile was, and still is, an important annual event, crucial for agriculture. It was accompanied by the rise of Sirius before the sunrise, and the appearance of 12 constellations across the night sky, to which the Egyptians assigned some significance. Influenced by this, the Egyptians divided the night into 12 equal intervals. These were seasonal hours, shorter in the summer than in the winter. Subsequently, the day was divided into intervals as well, which eventually became more important than the nightly intervals. These subdivisions of a day spread to Greece, and later to Rome.” (emphasis mine)

Egyptians liked the stars and thought those 12 constellations were important, so they divided up the night into that many hours. Just like I said.

See I could teach you. Then you’d pretend you knew it all the time.

I probably wouldn’t need to pretend, since you’re pathologically resistant to actually reading what I write. In fact, you’re probably going to reply to me about how “no, you idiot, it’s because the Egyptians thought that a particular set of 12 constellations were important!” next, aren’t you?

See, you keep on asserting your intelligence and telling me I’m wrong, but then just leaving the assertion there by itself and telling me to do my own research. It’s not my job to prove your point for you, though. That’s up to you.

You’re just a pseudointellectual

I believe I already answered that assertion in the affirmative, yes.

and didn’t even click “timekeeping in other cultures” when he did his pathetic Wikipedia browsing.

Actually I did click that one just now! and it proves that whole thing I said in some other comment about how other cultures have different timekeeping systems which means that it’s not inherent and is actually totally arbitrary! But since you didn’t read that, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you didn’t know.

Which is exactly why you insist on your silly kittle ignorance.

Here’s a dramatic paraphrase of our interaction so far.

Me: “I mean, A isn’t any more or less logical than B.”

You: “YOUR AN IDIOT A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B OMG YOU SHOULD BE SHOT”

Me: “What? That’s a strange amount of rage for something so mild, but what reason do you have for your opinion?”

You: “LOL NO IM NOT MAD UR JUST TRIGGERED IDIOT. A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B AND I DONT NEED TO TELL YOU MY REASON BECAUSE YOUR SO DUMB YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF STUPIDHEAD. OMG YOUR SO MAD AND TRIGGERED LOLOLOLOL”

Me: “That…isn’t actually a reason? See, here are a couple of reasons.”

You: “SEE YOU DONT HAVE ANY REASONS AT ALL LOLOL TRIGGERED, A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B”

Me: “What? I just gave you reasons, did you not even see them? Here, have some more. And why do you keep yelling the same thing over and over again?”

You: “KEK YOU ARE IGNORANT, A IS OBVIOUSLY MORE LOGICAL THAN B, U DONT KNOW ANYTHING, DONT HAVE ANY REASONS LOLOLOL”

Me: “…blink twice if you’re in danger, bro.”

You’re plain wrong. I will tell you eventually how badly, but now I’m just gonna sip on your dumb juice. So sweet.

Ok, this is going to sound like an insult, but it’s actually an honest question: are you literally a pre-teen? Because all this time I had been assuming you’re an adult, but if I’m dealing with a child I should probably recalibrate my expectations. It would certainly explain your ludicrous position, your bizarre rage disguised under the laughter, and the phrase “dumb juice.”

You don’t understand what the word “arbitrary” means, lol.

Well, if you said it, it must be true.

With your imagined system of “if everyone had always lived with random ass times they would feel as normal as they do now”.

So wait, is this a pivot, or are you still trying to claim that I’m advocating for this? I have completely lost track of what you’re framing your abusive posts on now.

Anyway, your imagined system of “somehow the fact that the time when people wake up is called 0600 is inherent to our biology or orbital dynamics or whatever” is absolutely not more logical than the system that the OP has asked about. It’s just as arbitrary (hey, yeah, look, I still know what that means!).

You don’t understand the basic history of timekeeping

Once again proving that you haven’t read the previous posts I’ve made. Come on, dude. Simple reading. That’s all I’m asking for.

and you have an utterly childish point, which is also wrong.

You have yet to actually prove this. Made lots of assertions, but you’re just screaming “nuh-uh! YOU are!” over and over at this point and then spiking the conversational football as if it does anything.

You’re just backing up on everything you’ve said after I rub your face in how stupid it’s been, then you pretend you don’t have a face full of poo.

Finally discovering what I was actually saying because you actually decided to go back and read it this time doesn’t count as “backing up.” I’ve been saying the same thing this whole time.

I speak 2 languages on a native level, one or two more fluently and a half a dozen in a “I could order in a restaurant” level. I’m pretty sure I know more expressions about time in more languages than you. How many languages do you speak?

…congratulations? I’m not sure how that’s relevant in any way to anything. If it’s really important to you: you’re very smart and special. I bet you make your parents proud.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t know the local language or “what time local noon is” or even if they’re using the same alphabet, you’ll still recognise a number like 14:00 - 03:00 and then look up at the sky and it’s not yet noon and you’ll know you’ll have to wait several hours at least.

Maybe. Or you’ll walk up to the door of a veterinarian and wait around for five hours before you realize that people are bringing animals into the place, not walking out with food. There’s also the problem of not knowing whether it’s before noon or after noon (so a sign that says they’re open for lunch from 1000-1800 would be useless if the sun is in a position where it could easily be 0700 or 1900). Or not being able to see the sun due to clouds or night or being inside. What I’m saying is that there are bigger problems involved in the situation you brought up, which is why I doubt anyone would care to solve the time problem. In this fictional, made-up world where the history of timekeeping went a little bit differently. Which you’ve somehow decided merits insulting me, despite you not actually having an argument that makes any logical sense. (Or at least not one you’re willing to share with the class)

But you’ll not admit that laughable. Which in itself amuses me.

I admit it’s absolutely laughable! You know what else is absolutely laughable? The idea that the current system makes any more sense! If you’re trying to coordinate an event with someone just a few miles away but across a time zone boundary in our current system, you have to go to great pains to sort everything out and make sure nobody arrives an hour early or an hour late. Or, even worse, two hours early (which happened once to a friend of mine when he did the time zone math backwards). Despite being just miles apart, and not being able to see any appreciable visible difference between the sun. That’s laughable, too.

“Oh, but we have tools to deal with it” or “oh, but we can figure it out” or “oh, git gud, noob”–and yeah, we’re used to it because we grew up with it and our parents grew up with it and our teachers grew up with it for generations and generations. If it had gone the other way, we would’ve developed different tools to deal with it, different ways of figuring it out, and we would’ve gotten good at other ways of keeping time. That’s literally my entire point.

All of this is laughable. It’s all arbitrary (yep, still got it) and hilarious because we made it all up. All models are wrong (including timekeeping). Some are useful.

You’re pretending like “noon” means nine because of its etymology, as in you’re pretending as if you understand linguistics, when you don’t understand that ignoring it’s actual descriptive meaning of “mid-day” (which is why it’s "high noon, because that’s describing the position of the sun) is something even a first year linguist would never do.

Your refusal to read in favor of just assuming what I mean is showing again.

But you’re not about learning, you’re about pretending you know things.

Aw, buddy. You think you’re teaching me anything? If you had anything to teach me, that would be a welcome change. I love learning things. But you seem to be in “dunk mode” and absolutely furious that I keep refusing to let you dunk on me.

And I’m saying you are wrong in that. Because you are. You are wrong in saying that. Do you understand? You are incorrect. It is not arbitrary. Even the number 12 isn’t arbitrary, neither is 24 or 100. That’s not what the word means, sweetums. <3

You seriously think that assigning 12 to “noon” is inherent, babycakes? You literally believe that there’s no other way that we could’ve matched up numbers to the time of day, pumpkin? Like there’s not other ways of keeping time that used different numbers or even words instead of the digits you’re familiar with on the clocks you own, honeybunch?

We agreed on 1200 as noon. That’s why it works, and that’s the only reason it works. If we had decided that noon would be 0000 or 1800 or “the sixth hour” or whatever, you’d be screaming your pretty little head off that I’m ridiculous for suggesting that 1200 makes as much sense as anything else. The decision has historical precedent, but it’s scientifically arbitrary (boom, still know that word). The planet doesn’t care whether we call it 1200 or d3:12:1h::23 or Xylophone, it’ll still rotate to put us under the sun at that time.

Yes, I’m perfectly aware. Watching you prance around pretending to be smart is like watching toddlers bake mud cakes. It’s cute how they think they’re doing a credible job and you just have to act along so they can enjoy themselves. :)

Having been a parent of a toddler, I can tell you it’s definitely nothing like that. For one thing, toddlers baking mud cakes is adorable, and I definitely am not adorable.

Oh I’m not going anywhere, hunny. You’re better entertainment than this show I’m watching.

I’m so happy to be of service, sweetie-pie. You have a great day now, 'k?

Oh another one of “me saying things doesn’t mean anything, you can’t deduce I meant something just because I said it!”

No, it’s “you can’t just unilaterally decide that I actually mean the opposite of what I’m saying.”

I’m not.

You are.

Oh, for real? Well, if you’ve already decided what I mean, then by all means, don’t let me distract you with reality.

you’re pretending to be a pseudointellectuel

No, I’m definitely a pseudointellectual.

while missing the actual issues shoved down your face, because you lack understanding and your ego is 3 sizes too big for your skills

I have yet to see you actually respond to the points I’ve actually made, only points you think I’ve made, so I’m not sure how you have enough data to determine that I “lack understanding.”

Exactly like I said. A pretentious pseudointellectuel and I’m not gonna teach you history. Do some desperate googling and then become ashamed

I don’t know what to tell you, bro. We have twelve hours because the ancient Egyptians liked the stars. That’s just reality. I’d love to hear why you think it is, though.

Again, units and numbers have no inherent meaning

Again, they literally have INHERENT meaning.

Send me your address I’ll order you a dictionary

Before you send it, I recommend you look up the word “context.”

You don’t understand the fundamental flaw in the system, but like I said, I’m not gonna be lecturing you, I’d rather watch you make a moron of yourself and maybe, maybe point out later what I’m talking about.

So, again, no actual argument, you’re just hoping to keep this going for long enough to come up with one.

You talk to me of word salad while you’re some pseudointellectual 14-year old twerp repeating these sad sixth grade history facts as some unbelievably arcane knowledge while not understanding the fundamental flaw in the whole system.

I didn’t think there’s anything arcane about something that can be easily found in a history book. But thanks for assuming I’m 14, that’s very kind of you. I haven’t been assumed to be that young in a long, long time.

You keep with your naive argument about noon being arbitrary and pretend as if your proposal isn’t like climbing up a tree arse first.

I don’t have any proposal at all, and until you get that into your head, I just don’t see how you can possibly have enough of a basis to even continue this conversation intelligently.

You’re just wrong.

Citation needed.

With your system,

I. Don’t. Have. A. System.

if you woke up after drinking for days, not knowing literally where on Earth you are, you would see a restaurant, read the sign and still have zero idea when it was open. You’d need to know where you are and “when” the times are. Ridiculous

Bro, other languages exist. If you woke up after drinking for days, it’s entirely likely that you won’t be able to read the words on the sign and know whether it’s a restaurant or a nursing home or a gambling parlor.

It’s called the middle of the day, because it’s in the middle of the day.

That there’s what we call a tautology.

Before it there’s an equal amount of light as after it. Youre honestly going to stand here arguing that high-noon being in the middle of a DAY is arbitrary, without smelling a hint of irony?

Nope. But you still aren’t actually dealing with the reality that I’m not saying the word “noon” is arbitrary, I’m saying that the numbers we’ve assigned to it are. Remember, in the twelve hour clock, noon happens at the end of one set of numbers and at the beginning of the other set. In some timekeeping systems it’s even weirder. Other choices could and have been made, and are even still in use.

I’m begging you. Give some indication that you are at all literate here.

You’re clearly upset and projecting. Is English your first language? It’s honestly amazing how often I end up correcting Americans on how to use English.

Not sure what you’re talking about. I’m having a great time watching you make a fool of yourself and froth at the mouth about how intelligent you are. It’s hilarious.

You didn’t understand the point. I was talking about Romans. Happy desperate googling, mr angry-like-a-wet-cat!

Aw, sorry, I already noted that you’re angry. You can’t “no u” that one back at me. I’m deducting five indignation points.

You saying a thing doesn’t make it so. For instance I could say that literally every word you said was arbitrary. It doesn’t make it so, does it? Also, trying to use prescriptivism shows just how lacking you are in your linguistics conversational.

…eh? I’m very clearly not being prescriptivist, since I’m the one taking about how the word has been used differently through time.

Are you feeding my posts to ChatGPT and asking for responses?

Me purposefully not replying to each of your childish retorts wouldn’t help anything.

Ah, classic. “I don’t have an actual argument, so I’ll pretend like making one is beneath me and hope the other person makes it for me…”

You’re just wrong but you’ll never be able to accept it. You’ll equivocate, possibly for weeks even.

“…and then I’ll preemptively lay the table for me to exit the conversation with righteous indignation when I’ve used up all of my insults or gotten bored.” Love it. Well done.

Noon or midnight aren’t arbitrary.

I didn’t say they were. I said that the numbers we’ve attached to them are.

(roughly, days aren’t actually exactly a day long but that’s too advanced for you lol).

Strong words from someone who only reads three out of every five words.

The exact middle of the day, recognisable to most people simply by looking up, is the exact opposite of arbitrary.

Calling it the “middle of the day” is. It could very easily be the beginning of the day, or three-quarters of the way through the day. If you had lived with that your whole life, you would think it was normal.

There’s literally an inherent meaning in [numbers].

Not as they’re used in timekeeping. I’m sorry, I didn’t realize I needed to explain something so simple to you as “the words I use are meant to be interpreted in the context in which I’m using them.”

There’s also actual reason as to why the day is divided the way it is, but seeing how proud you are of your overbearing ignorance, I’m not gonna educate you on what it is.

That’s a lot of words to say “I don’t know but there’s probably a reason.”

The real reason is “because the ancient Egyptians arbitrarily decided to divide it into twelve hours.” As for indexing solar noon as 12:00, well, it actually didn’t always; in fact, the word “noon” comes from the Latin word for “nine.” The first hour of the day (when people woke up) was 1:00, roughly analogous to our 6am, and nine hours later (our 3pm) was “noon.” The reason it became solar noon was that they observed a sort of coordinated universal time! Noon drifted earlier in the day as the center of culture drifted.

Hours weren’t always the same length, it’d depend on the length of the time of day. Do you know what doesn’t change? Noon being in the middle of the day.

Sure it does. Other cultures make noon the beginning of the day, or make sunset the beginning of the day. Yes it changes the lengths of time periods. You only think it’s weird because you’ve always known a world where noon was the middle of the day.

Because we’re on a revolving piece of rock in space and no matter how much you stomp your foot and cry foul, noon will still always be non-arbitrary

True. But noon as equal to 1200 will always be arbitrary, because we’re on a rock in space and it didn’t come with any numbers on it.

Ah, some deeply meaningful willfull ignorance, because you can’t admit you backed a moronic idea.

Once again, I beg you to actually use some reading comprehension. I haven’t backed any ideas. But it’s easier to sling insults than to read carefully and come up with a cogent response.

You’re assuming an awful lot about me based on complete ignorance and using those assumptions to justify a really bizarre level of abuse.

You don’t understand time zones or geopolitical history either it seems, and you’re imaging people from thousands of years ago to have a concept of universality.

I’m not. That’s literally the premise of the idea proposed here. The fact that you don’t get that is really making me question your reading comprehension abilities.

You’re not proposing a single improvement,

Correct. I’m not. As I’ve noted several times now, I’m not proposing anything. I’m just pointing out that we have a significant bias toward the system we already know.

Except it is, because that’s how hours work. You probably don’t know where they come from either

Yeah, they were chosen more or less arbitrarily by the ancient Egyptians because there were twelve significant constellations they followed, which led to a sort of base-12 number system they used for stuff related to the sky (months and hours in particular).

Again, units and numbers have no inherent meaning. We made it all up. A day could just as easily have had ten hours of 144 minutes each, or 40 hours of 36 minutes each.

I know it seems to you like you’re making sense, but you’re not…

The fact that you don’t understand what I’m saying doesn’t mean that I’m not making sense. And I think there’s ample evidence here that you’re just not reading carefully.

…because you’re ignorant of so many assumptions you’ve made, which if changed, would be like giving ancient Romans the GPS instead of them using sundials and that said Romans would’ve magically been able to consider that theyre noon is two hours after “the real” noon, which is based on…?

Ok. Deciphering your word salad here, I think you’re trying to suggest that our current 24-hour day and time zones were somehow inevitable? Which…I mean, obviously they aren’t, since there are many cultures that independently came up with different time systems.

There’s a Hindi clock that divides the day into thirty hours. Roman timekeeping was divided into 12 hours, but that time was measured from sunrise to sunset. Byzantine time uses the same division of days into 24 hours, but starts a day at sunset, meaning that the start of a day changes within the same city throughout the year. France even tried decimal time for a while, where each day has ten hours, each hour has 100 minutes, and each minute has 100 seconds. All of these systems arose from different starting conditions, none of which were “giving Romans GPS” (they already knew the Earth was round) and none of which caused any problems with users going to sleep at different times of day.

The thought experiment here isn’t “how could this have happened given existing conditions?” or even “what conditions could have brought this about?” but rather “assuming a world where some set of conditions brought about a true worldwide UTC without offsets, what would it look like to the users of that system?”

And this is what you’ve decided merits abusive behavior. Can’t imagine what you’re like about stuff that actually matters.

Yeah, there’s a name for it. But I forget what it is.

“Schlock and aaaauuuuughhhhhhh”?

We’re already predisposed toward a bit of iconoclasm just being here instead of Reddit. The “normies” are still elsewhere, so we get it into our heads that the echo chamber around us is the norm, rather than a self-selected group of people for whom Greta Thunberg is a centrist. On those rare occasions that a normie gets here, we find ourselves shocked at how they live their lives.

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Are you suggesting that this is a world without the internet or international television programs? He’s going to know that hours are different everywhere, especially if he has friends in other regions.

That why this “make everyones time the same” is about as smart as an idea as shoving Lego up your nose.

Only because the current way is the one you know. In this alternate universe where the whole world has always been on UTC and someone posted a question on Lemmy asking why the whole planet isn’t divided up into 1-hour offsets with their own times, that universe’s version of you would be just as irrationally angry with that universe’s version of me for daring to suggest that the time zone idea is no less irrational than the UTC idea.

Having “our local noon is 0550pm” is dumb as rocks and nowhere comparable to time zones.

How is “our local noon is at 1200” any more objectively logical? Midnight is an objectively arbitrary time to start the new date. The best you can say is that it’s twelve hours before local noon, but even if you index off of local noon it doesn’t make any more logical sense to put the 0 while most people are asleep. Someone who hasn’t grown up with our clock might well say, “why would we choose a clock that puts the beginning of the usable part of the day at 6 or 7 for most people?” Calling the hour when people wake up 0000 or 0100 would make a lot of logical sense.

Unlike some people have prolly told you, not every idea is equal.

Numbers have no inherent meaning. We could make noon happen at 0000, 1200, 2200, whatever–and people would find it completely intuitive if they grew up in it all their lives.

I’m not saying that “every idea is equal.” That’s patently nonsense. What I’m saying is that, if you’re going to have a 24-hour clock indexed to noon, putting noon at 1200 makes just as much sense as putting it at any other time on that 24-hour clock.

Now go ahead and read what it’s doing in China and see our glorious idea at work

Sounds like the answer is “fine.” People in Xinjiang wake up a couple of hours late, start work at 1100, have lunch at 1400, and often watch the sun set at midnight. They continue to live there and continue to have a pretty normal life. The only weirdness comes from talking to people in other time zones, which again would not be a problem if everyone in the world had started with this from their youth.

Again, I’m not trying to suggest that it’s better. I’m just saying that this arbitrary choice about how to handle time around the world is not any better or worse than any other arbitrary choice we could have made; it’s only because we know our current method so well that we think any other method is weird.

His real first name is “Emory,” so make sure you put that in there too.

(Last I heard, his fans hate it)

No, in this hypothetical scenario, he wouldn’t complain about it being 0945 because he’s grown up in a world where that’s ambiguous. He’s going to say, “Don’t you know it’s the middle of the night here?!”

That’s not too different from how it is now. In fact it might be worse, because once you know a time you have to remember not only a time but the offset that you know the time in.

Yep. I can tell you that dinner would be around 0930, but you’re right that the other calculations are tougher.

I’m not saying this would be better. Either system has trade-offs. I’m saying that each of them would be equally weird from the other side.

It’s not more convenient. I’m just saying we’d have been used to that and just as weirded out by the idea of time zones if that was all we’d ever known.